Legacy Owners

This transcript has been edited for clarity and ease of reading. 

Alliance Physical Therapy Partners and Agile Virtual Physical Therapy proudly present Agile&Me, a physical therapy leadership podcast devised to help emerging and experienced therapy leaders learn more about various topics relevant to outpatient therapy services.  

Richard: Welcome back to Agile&Me, a physical therapy leadership podcast series. Today, I'm really excited to chat with Kevin. I want to talk about legacy owners and their experience with regards to partnering with PT companies but before we talk about that, Kevin, I'd love for the listeners to know your background because you've got an interesting background and I think you've got to add a lot of value to this conversation. So before we dive into the actual podcast, talking about the process and the, from your perspective as a legacy owner, perhaps to explain a little bit about yourself. 

Kevin: I went to school over in Fort Lauderdale, Florida at Nova Southeastern, and I started my physical therapy career actually back in Chicago with Let It Go. Worked for them, and then I needed to come home, so I came back to the Bay Area to pursue basically my dream of owning my own business. So I started my own business and started my own clinic in Dublin. In 2008, these opened the doors. It was me and I had two other employees and that's kind of how it started in 2008 and then flash forward, own the business for at least 15 years and then opened up two other locations. So we had three locations, one in Dublin, one in Livermore and one in Concord. 

Richard: Okay. Good. Well, thank you so much for sharing your background. You don't look a day over 23. So the fact that you've been qualified for quite a while is impressive. I'm sure you found the change from Midwest to West coast, quite a shock culturally as well for you back then.

Kevin: Absolutely. It was great though. I had a great time in the Midwest. The Midwest definitely holds a special place in my heart. I loved it there, honestly. 

Richard: So a little bit of background for the listeners Kevin has partnered with Alliance and having been a private practice owner for so long, I would love to get your insights with regards to the process which led you to the partnership and, and then afterwards, how things have gone because there's a lot of apprehension with private practice owners as they kind of consider this as an option and then work through it and I have no doubt that there were kind of highs and lows and apprehension with the process. But before we kind of go into the process itself. What I'd love to know is really in the beginning, how did it all start? You know, were you contacted or did you reach out? Kind of how that conversation originated? And then what sparked your interest in having that conversation? 

Kevin: So my savior, Jill, had been reaching out to me for many months and of course I ignored her for a while, but it came to a point where I was like, let's see what they have to say. I'm very curious about what she has to say. So I called her and we kind of chatted and things like that. And we were chatting about the challenges that I'm having running a business and running three clinics and the scalability and really just did a great job listening to what was going on with me and the clinics and things like that. So that's really how it started. And then from there, we just started building a relationship with Jill and I, and then came into, okay, well, how can we help you? And that really sparked it. It was like, I really felt like Alliance. And then after meeting you, Richard, that one day, and even Ben too, you wanted to help not just me and the company, but our profession. And I felt like that was huge. And I felt like you're the mission and the values of Alliance. And even Richard and Ben, you know, it was about doing good for the profession, doing good for PT, helping our patients, but also helping our employees. And I felt like this was something that we wanted to do because we had the same mission of me wanting to take care of my employees. And I think that was really important to you as well. So, yeah, so it started as a slow relationship like that, and then gradually built to me calling Ben, Hey, you know, I need some advice. What can you do? And what can you give me some advice to help with the business run better and make people more happy? And so I started slowly building rapport with everybody and that was just absolutely fabulous and then building rapport and trust and really feeling, they're really trying to help not just to make a buck or something like that. We want to help this profession. 

Richard: I think it's quite interesting. You talk about it over a period of time. I think there are some private practice owners that I think they wake up almost and say, look, I'm done. You know, I want to give somebody else the keys or whatever happened that I made the decision that I want to kind of pass across ownership. But I think that's probably the exception rather than the rule. My feeling is and it relates to your experience is really it is over a period of time. You're going to kind of reach that thought or conclusion and It's having the time to be able to process that yourself. But also the time to build a relationship. I kind of talk about dating as well. Concept of dating because if you need that time, don't you and for many reasons?

Kevin: Absolutely. We do need that time. And you know, this is my baby, so I was like we're not just going to put our baby, give it to anybody to babysit or take care of and things like that. And I knew that no matter what happened or who we chose, they needed to take care of the spaces as their own entities as well. And I wanted them to be taken care of as well. And also having me involved to still see the spaces thrive and the people thrive and seeing the employees who've been with me for so long.

Richard: You know, what I've always tried to do, obviously I've been on the different side of the table, but what I've tried to do is a number of things. One is complete honesty. Yeah. Second is transparency. And then I think the third thing I think is critical is building trust because without those three ingredients, I don't think that you can be successful at all. Either progressing the partnership or even developing a relationship to be able to even start the mechanics of it. Would you say that's kind of true and what you needed, were looking for and found? 

Kevin: Absolutely. I think from the beginning it is very transparent. Even just talking to you about the details, you really took the time, Tony listened to what my challenges were, but then processing it and saying, okay, well let's help you figure this out. And we took the steps to figure it out together, and I really appreciated that, you know, that was more personal than professional. To be honest with you every business owner takes everything very personal, the trust to build over time was a huge 1 for me. And this may be small, but anytime I would call you or Ben. You guys would pick up the phone and be like, Hey, I can pick up the phone and talk to them and get advice. And that was really nice. You know, not everyone picks it up, especially nowadays, like an automated thing, but it was nice to have that person's ability. Yeah, it goes a long way 

Richard: Showing your old age a little bit, whereas most people don't even know how to use a phone. Just out of interest, how do you talk to anyone else? I don't obviously want specifics, but how did you have anyone else approach you? You talk to anyone else? Was there? What was the difference? Why? Why kind of continue the conversation? What did you feel was a difference? If somebody did reach out, 

Kevin: I did have a couple of people reach out, a lot of people actually over the years. And I talked to a few people. I didn't feel this value that they valued what I did, which was the employees and the patients.

I felt more of a business transaction, which I didn't want to do in that sense. And I didn't, I didn't feel like they wanted to really help me or help the profession. And I felt some of them were a lot of arrogance. I'm not sure why, but a lot of them had when I was talking to them, almost like they're better than everybody. And this is why you should do it because we're better than everybody. And I didn't like that. It's not how my kind of mind works. Everyone has something to offer and everyone has offered to do good. So the arrogance part was really, really got to me with, I would say, 2 of them that really bothers me, rubbed me the wrong way.

Richard: The other thing that I'm cognizant of during these kinds of early conversations is it takes time to process. It does. And there is, I think there has to be, it has to be kind of right place, right time, right person. And you can, you can identify the right partner. You can identify as in the right geography or right, but there has to be the right time and it has to be the right time for both entities. One is pushing you on the time frame, timeline of the acquiring entity rather than the timeline of the private practitioner that is looking to partner. And I think if there is that push, then I think that can lead to a number of things. One, it can lead to the fact that you shut down and just don't talk to them or what even worse than that is you're carried along and then you have remorse regret, so that's really one thing I've been very respectful and hopefully you felt that that even though Jill had outreach and even though we spoke, you never felt as if it was there was any pushing at all.

Kevin: Yeah, I never felt any pushing. I always felt like you're there to help. I really did. I always felt like you're there to help. You wanted spine and sports to succeed, for the people and for me. And I think that that person's ability was what I needed at that time, so I really appreciate that for sure.

Richard: Going back to the end of the dating analogy, which I'm sure we'll, we'll kind of talk about quite a lot, actually, in the beginning when you introduced to the other person, you always put on your best face and there is some salesmanship, even though I hopefully you've never felt that, that I was overpowering in that respect. And again, it kind of goes back to that transparency in the beginning somewhat. But I think that you as a private practice owner think you can see very easily, can't you, if it's kind of that schmoozing sales component or whether there is some, some genuineness. And I think that's, that can show very quickly, can't it?

Kevin: You know, I think most business owners have their business for a long time. You may know their business, but we know people, right. We know people when they're not being genuine. I felt like everyone at Alliance was being genuine with me. 

At Alliance, we believe that partnership means creating something greater than the sum of its parts.

Our focus is finding physical therapy practices with a strong culture and thriving community. And providing them with additional tools, resources, and expertise to take their practice to the next level. To learn more about joining our nationwide community of outpatient physical therapy practices, visit our website - allianceptp.com

Richard: Did you find that talking to a clinician fairly early on was helpful? I don't know if you've ever thought of it this way. As a clinician myself I feel that I have a good understanding, probably a little better than a non clinician. I'm sure you're being reached out to by non clinicians, which is probably the norm. Did you feel that there was a difference in that respect or didn't really think about it at the time? 

Kevin: No, it definitely hit me with a new year of PT because I talked to other people who are in PTs and they don't really get it right. They don't understand what we go through, not only with school, but dealing with patients' personalities and having to absorb those personalities sometimes or their pain and dealing with people in pain. And really the mission of physical therapy. I don't know if you can really understand it until you go to school and, and treat people for, you know, three to 10 years and to really get it. Knowing you're a PT, knowing that we could kind of speak the same language was huge, knowing what it's like to see 15 to 20 patients a day back in the day, doing those things I think that empathy really goes a long just knowing what we all went through to go to get here to get where we are today. 

Richard: Yeah, my attitude has always been when talking to private practice owners is really whilst they're the mechanics of the business the metrics of the business the finance the business, important you know in order to be successful for 15 years plus you've got to know that. You've got to have done that. Yeah. So to me, if you've managed to run a successful business, grow your baby or child over a period of time, I never feel that I really need to talk about those types of things. Because if you weren't aware of those things, you would never have actually been successful for such a long period of time anyway. So to me, it's really focusing on the soft side. Is it a cultural fit and process perspective? It's relatively easy to follow a process or it's really, though, it's not easy to adapt to a different culture. And that's really where I start. The conversation, is it going to be a fit behavioral personality culture more than the kind of business mechanics, would you agree with that?

Kevin: I would totally agree with that, to be honest with you. I think it definitely is a personality thing. It definitely goes with the culture of the clinics. And that was really one of the biggest things that sparked this to talking to you and talking to Ben and then seeing soul and knowing that our values and culture were very similar and going into the clinics now and visiting them, the people are very similar to the people that are in spine and sports. It was almost like this was meant to be and to combine cultures really hasn't been that difficult because we're just like adding another great clinic to the culture and things like that.

Richard: Yeah, I think that's why it has been so successful. It is not always the way and as the. As alliance partners, representative alliance partners, I'll often turn down opportunities. Not because they're not making money or anything to do with the business side. It's because I'm very fearful that that alignment isn't there and the damage that can occur as a result of that. And I think this is a great example. Our companies really aligned together and it just made it so much easier. Even Dan and Ben and the group director I get along really well and we collaborate and, you know, those things are special to me. The special relationships that you cultivate with people.

Kevin: And I know everyone kind of feels that same way, which is nice. I think we've covered some of the perhaps concerns and trepidations you had about the process of partnering, but in the kind of those really early days, what were the questions you were asking yourself? I think the fear was really more personal like my personal pride and my ego. I was the CEO and of, you know, 60, 70 employees and now I'm going to be a clinical director. I think it was more of a personal journey that I had to really take and really talk, sit down and be like, okay this is what you want. This is only you're sure this is what you want and even talking to my wife, she was like, you do this and I get you back. I said, I'm like, damn it. I didn't know I was gone but in the past, you worked so hard for your family and we worked to the bone and then you wake up 1 day and it's like, maybe my hard work is actually hurting my family now. And that was really the driving point to this whole thing. I kind of went on tension because that was really important to me. But I think that looking back, that it was more of my personal journey. It's really the idea of working out priorities in life and parties change over time.

Richard: I love the fact that you've perhaps been blinkered as well, because I think in any role, you can get blinkered and it needs somebody else. And in your instance, it's your wife. And I've oftentimes in my instance, it's my wife as well, that kind of takes the blinders off. And I think that's important, isn't it? You might be losing on one side, but it's also understanding you might be gaining on the other side as well, isn't it? It's just more than it's just different. It's just different, and I would honestly say it's better. I'm less stressed out. I'm not waking up in a cold sweat at 3 in the morning.

Kevin: I'm happier. Last holiday was probably the first holiday I enjoyed in probably my 46 years. So that was really nice to spend time with family and be present and just be able to, you know, like I said, see patients and take care of my people, you know, and not have to worry so much. 

Richard: Absolutely. I think this is interesting. You mentioned it a few times already, one of the trepidations or fears is not only how you will be able to define yourself going forward. I know how you relate to peers. People within your organization, family, et cetera. The other thing is, it is about your team. And I hear this pretty much every time that people want to have their, make sure that their team is looked after. I think, I think in many ways that, you know, part of that is, is. Making sure they are respected, treated in a respectful and professional manner. Because there are hard decisions along the way, aren't there? And I think it's not so much the idea that everyone can go forward, it's the fact that everyone is treated fairly and in a respectful manner. I agree. Now, obviously it was a little bit of a leap of faith because again, like dating until you kind of put the wedding ring on, you're never quite sure, are you? Everyone's on their best behavior. So when we talk about very early that, that trust that's, that's gradually earned over a period of time, that transparency, did you feel at any point that it was eroded or were there any concerns that made you question that? 

Kevin: No. I think it was very transparent. You spelled it out for me from beginning to end and actually, it was the business part. Actually the business transaction was probably the easiest part versus me trying to think of what in my head, once we started rolling it was actually pretty good.

Richard: Yeah, so let's spend a little bit of time about the diligence phase. So there was the left of intent where there was a series of conversations over a long period of time in our instance. And then it really is reaching a number of terms and then once the kind of you decided, this is where we want to pursue. It was a non binding letter of intent, but really that was kind of the formal piece where the rubber hits the road, isn't it? And then there's kind of a period of time. I'm not sure. I'd be interested in how you perceive that period of time, but the diligence phase, the time between signing the letter of intent and actually completing the sale and the new partnership, how is that? That period of time for you, both from a very practical manner, but also from how were you as an individual owner feeling, how, how was, you know, what was happening with you? So basically how did it go from a business perspective and how did it go from a Kevin perspective? 

Kevin: I really felt like we never really entered negotiations. I feel like it was more of a collaboration and I never felt like anyone was trying to sell me on this. It was like, okay, well, this is the price. What do you think? And we went to the price and I think it was fair. I think it was very fair. And they told me you were very transparent on how we came up with this number and educated me. And I think it was fair. I think for personally, it was really not that much stress or strain. Cause it feels like you're talking to a buddy almost, but you're trying to work it out, not just trying to win. I wasn't really trying to win. I didn't feel like you guys were trying to win. It was like, let's just come up with what is fair. So both parties can succeed. And yeah, that was really nice actually. And I felt the respect, Hey, you are a business owner that did this for 15 plus years. And it's like, we're not going to try to try and pull a fast one on you. Cause you're going to know. And you know, if you do that, you're going to lose me. And then it's just disrespectful. And I didn't feel that way at all. 

Richard: Yeah. That's a good point not only do I fear that I lose the owner, but if I lose the owner, then I usually lose the entire team as well. Because your team is dedicated to you and they're not dedicated to me or the entity that is the larger entity. Are they? It again, to maintain that respect, transparency, openness, all the way through the process. And I love the fact that you thought it was collaborative in nature. Yeah. And hopefully, you were introduced during the diligence phase to multiple people as well. You had the league or you had HR, you had everyone coming at you and we can talk about what kind of support and what help you had the most.

Orthotic manufacturers take a one shape fits all approach to solving lower body pain symptoms. They focus on arch support for temporary pain relief which can lead to inefficiencies and injuries Biocorrect does things differently. With 25 years of experience, Biocorrect knows that everyone has unique needs. Biocorrect is a fully customizable foot orthotic system engineered to address and treat the biomechanical imbalances of your entire body. Biocorrect, more than just an insert. To learn more, visit us at Biocorrect.com 

Richard: Do you feel as well as the owner that it wasn't just myself that was walking the walk, but it was everyone that was talking to you and interacting with you from the acquiring side.

Kevin: I did. I felt a lot of support. I felt support, even from Jill. I remember even when we first started like Jill, it's time. She's like, okay. She went to bat for me and called you, and that's when we kind of started the whole thing. And then meeting everyone in the due diligence phase. I know we met twice a week for four to six weeks. And just taking our time, walking through everything, I'm really lucky I had two people in the back to help me with all this stuff, Naomi and Reina. But you and I, having those meetings every twice a week just kind of whittle away at the due diligence was really helpful too. 

Richard: Yeah. So you mentioned Aimee & Nebrino at which they were fantastic and I'm sure you're very proud of those two individuals and they really, I believe, helped through the process to make sure it kind of ran as smoothly as it can. And they seem to take a lot of stress off you as well. Is that accurate in saying that? 

Kevin: Oh, a hundred percent. They did the stuff that I was really weak in. And honestly, the sale would have been a lot harder without them being able to get all the information together for the team and things like that. Definitely saviors for me too.

Richard: And whilst we talk about the impact on you as the owner and this is your baby, obviously, a family raises the baby and Naomi and Nabrina and your entire team were kind of an extended family. I've never asked this, but how did Naomi and Nabrina help you through diligence? Obviously they knew things that the rest of your team didn't. How did they handle the process? How would they do it? 

Kevin: Naomi and Sabrina are amazing. And when I told them, obviously it's a shock, but we mourn together and we celebrate together. And I remember when we talked about it, you know, we had a big hug and had a little bit of a prayer and said, Hey, we're going to get through this together and, no matter what happens we worked together for 15 years and we can't take that relationship back. So having them next to me, helping me really, I mean, they got it done and it would have been a lot harder without them for sure. 

Richard: So were there any surprises or what surprised you the most about the kind of the diligence phase or really anything up to where we formally joined, was there anything in the process that surprised you? 

Kevin: What really surprised me was the time it took to do it in a good way and the collaboration and fairness. I think you guys were overly fair, which made me feel really good and made me feel like this is the right spot for my clinics to still thrive. I remember when we were talking to due diligence space, I was probably complaining about something and you're like, Kevin, I'm not going to do anything to make you mad. And I'm like, well, you're right. Okay. Let's keep going. So I think that you're very intuitive like I am. And you see that sometimes we need to hear things. And that really stuck with me when that kind of happened. We want to do what's best for me and for the people and for the company. 

Richard: Yeah. From when I put my business hat on, I'm always of the opinion that if I upset the owner, then how is that going to translate into an ongoing relationship? Because I want to be your partner. I want to be with you for many years, all being well, and you know if I did anything to compromise that even before you joined us, then, you know, I can't imagine the type of tone that would have happened afterwards. From a business perspective one could say that's selfish, but really from a human perspective as well, it's about doing the right thing, isn't it? I believe if you do the right thing, the business will tend to take care of itself in the long run, and I think this is where, Some people, I think, slip up with the idea of thinking more short term, and I hate to say it, but perhaps a little bit selfishly, and yes, it might get you a couple more dollars in the short term, but in the long run, that's not really the culture or the environment or the type of organization really that's going to be successful, is it?

Kevin: Absolutely. And you know, honestly, I've talked to a lot of people in my 20 years of doing this, and a lot of people say that kind of stuff, and I think you're probably the only one in the last part of the one that went actually back to that and said, Okay, this is what we're all about. And it was like that from beginning to end. When we hear a lot of trash, just like people say that kind of stuff. And they don't mean it, they don't mean it. And they don't know how to show it. 

Richard: Yeah, we've kind of touched on it. But what was done to help you through the process. And you had obviously a great couple of employees to help you on your side, just collecting information. And there's a lot of information to collect, but what else was, did you feel was done to help you through both practically and in any other way? 

Kevin: So right off the bat, I started having bi weekly meetings with Ben. Gosh, I might unload on him so many times, poor guy, but just that really helped me, talking to someone twice a week to kind of go through it. So having someone to talk to was, I think, the utmost biggest thing. But also what I really realized in this whole process was my employees care and a lot of my employees would come up to me, say, how are you doing and doing kind of reverse. Like, they're checking in on me and checking in on how I'm doing and family and making sure that I'm okay and they wanted to make sure that I'm staying and staying to practice and take care of them as well. So that helped me a lot knowing that what I did was good. They cared about me and the business and had a lot of pride in the business and the name and things like that. 

Richard: Yeah. I think that really shows kudos to you and shows the strength of the culture you built over that time, because that is not often the case. Unfortunately, what I've seen oftentimes is there's this loyalty from the owner to the employees, but that often isn't reciprocated. And it comes as a bit of a shock sometimes to the owner. So that's interesting. In hindsight, was there anything that could have been done more or less differently to help you with the process all the way through? You know, some people say, well, I'll just use a broker. Did you feel, for instance, at any time that you were compromised or felt that you needed somebody to represent you or did you feel that more explanation should have been given at a certain point or more practical assistance? Was there anything that, as I say, could have been done more or less differently through the process?

Kevin: I've been thinking about that question and what could have been done better. I really couldn't think of anything. Honestly, it was really, it was honestly, it was very clean. Everything you said happened, and happened in the right time frame. And it was surprisingly very easy. It was easy from the beginning to the end. And I think a lot of it is honestly just my realization of trying to find out what's my next steps for this and how am I gonna fit in? And this next thing you know how am I gonna do having a boss? When it was just me and my wife would tell you, you'd be happy. You have a boss, you can talk to someone. I'm like, well, you're right. You collaborate somebody 

Richard: You can pass your problems along after all these years, you can ring somebody up and it can be somebody else's problem. 

Kevin: That's right now. But yeah, so that little stuff, but you know, honestly, it was, it was a good experience. I don't have any negatives.

Richard: What would you say, Kevin, about the question of brokers? Because a lot of, Entities, even individual practice owners, feel that they need to have a broker. Did you, did you ever consider a broker and what would you say to those people?

Kevin: Anytime you own a business, brokers are going to reach out to you. A ton of them are, but my thing was, I don't want anyone representing my company except for me and I can do it. And I've been doing this long enough. I can talk. I'm strong enough to talk to someone and confident enough to be direct. And I didn't want someone else representing me. And why should they get a piece of the pie when I can talk to someone and they don't know me, they don't know the culture of the company, they're just trying to look for a business transaction. And I wasn't looking for just a business transaction. It was just too important to me. So I would say, if you can do it on your own, I think that Alliance and stuff definitely just just open up the conversation and have a normal conversation with someone and do it yourself for sure. 

Richard: I think the conversation that a broker would say or the benefit that they would say is that they can get a better deal. And I think if the entity acquiring entity or the new partner lacked perhaps that level of transparency, honesty, openness. I can perhaps see that because the broker can perhaps smell it and advocate for private practitioners that perhaps aren't as business savvy or not as comfortable perhaps, or confident, but did you feel in any way that a broker could have assisted in that manner, perhaps for you?

Kevin: I don't think it was needed. I'd never felt that I needed someone else to negotiate for me. I never felt threatened. Like I said, I don't think it was more like a collaboration. So I think having another person just would have been like the middle person to go back and forth. And you know, that's not personable to me and I didn't want to do that. So no. I think the price, no matter what it was, would have been it. And then if the broker would have taken a percentage and we would have gotten less. 

Richard: So when we move on to the last piece, which is what I say, post close, obviously life is very different. I would hope it is because I would hope that there's a lot less stress in many ways, a lot less pressure. I would also hope that you have a lot more spare time because as you've inferred or mentioned earlier, 15 year it's not just a business. It's your life. And I think you can get completely absorbed in it at times, even without realizing. And, I think there is a lot of stress, anxiety, whatever we want to call it, associated with being that person who is in charge, who is the owner. And, and as I always say, leaders eat last, and having had to eat last for 15 years, I'm sure that had its tough moments. How's it been? 

Kevin: Honestly, it has been really great. I feel like I'm back doing what I love to do. And that's taking care of my employees, mentoring, and coaching staff. I feel like my old self, and I've told my employees that. I'm back enjoying treating patients and getting back to doing physical therapy and taking care of the employees and seeing them grow. And before I felt like I wasn't really able to celebrate that. And now I have two of my techs going to PT school this year. And I'm just able to celebrate that with them, helping them get there and seeing them grow. I love that. And I felt like I kind of mentally was gone doing other stuff. And now I feel like I'm finally more present to see that stuff and get back to coaching and getting back to mentoring the young people to see them get better. That has been absolutely amazing and then in my personal life, I'm not waking up in a cold sweat anymore. I'm actually sleeping and when I leave here, it's not like I'm dreading the night where I'm having to do other stuff or even dreading the morning where it's like 3 or 4 in the morning, trying to go back to sleep because you're anxious about your deposit after Thanksgiving, which is always brutal. We all know so I think those kinds of things go a long way. I actually have PTO, so that's really cool. And all those other great benefits, honestly when we first signed on and you guys started this 401k, I was about to call you like, man, are you sure this is great? And just having those little things set up or just really cool, it wasn't all on me, everything was like, okay, if something happens, I have to write the check or I've got to deal with this and to just accept it was really nice. 

Richard: When I first started working for another entity and I was accruing PTO and I couldn't get my head around the idea that somebody was actually going to pay me whilst I was off. I couldn't understand that. I said, what do you mean you're going to give me money whilst I'm not at work? It took me a while to get my head around that concept. 

Kevin: And even now when I take PTO, I leave and I don't have to think about the other stuff before. I mean, it's not PTO, you leave, but you're still there and I think I told you this, I was in Hawaii trying to move payroll and i'm over in the mountains, like trying to move with my phone and now we go camping and I'm okay, the business is going to be okay. And I've got a level of help to make sure everything's going to be okay. 

Richard: Yeah. You've got a whole revenue cycle team. You've got a whole HR department. You've got IT. It's about the team and your concern was for the team. How did the team do? And if I understand correctly, you pretty much got an intact team is that correct? Honestly, they have been going through the stages of mourning with me and with some of the branding changes and just different system changes which is fine, it is what it is, but Gus going through it together made us a lot stronger.

Kevin: But also having the time now to then have meetings with them and make sure they're okay, where I don't feel like I have to see a million people today and being able to really just be present for them has helped me a lot. And I've gone through and said, thank you to each and every 1 of them for helping. And we all took pictures and things like that. I  definitely leaned on them and they leaned on me. And I think we all got through it together and definitely there's still some systems that are different where you're like, oh, okay, well, you know, that's different. Well, that's different, but this is why, and I think we're all taking it into stride. So I would say all of us are in a better acceptance stage, definitely a better acceptance stage for sure. I think it's really important we do a great job talking about what we do a terrible job talking about the why, and then certainly I think we miss the mark sometimes with the how, when, and where as well, but the why is something where I think organizations struggle with.

Richard: Have you felt that along the way, you have been explained the why, and your team has been explained the why for different things? Absolutely. I think so. You know, but the why really hasn't changed and that's to take care of each other. So we can take care of our patients, you know, and that's the reason why we all became physical therapists.

Kevin: It's not to see 30 people a day. It is to do a great job with 12, right? Do 12, 15 and do a great job with them. Make them better and make their dreams come back. So they can be functional and then make themselves take care of each other every day in the clinic. Okay. If you see someone's upset, take the time to say what's going on, check in with me. And those little things go a long way in trying to just support each other through all these things. And we deal with people who are in pain. We deal with people who have other issues too, and we have to lean on each other. So we don't absorb all those energies and men go down that rabbit hole, especially in physical therapy, for sure.

Richard: They talked about having additional support. People are able to alleviate a lot of those stresses and strains that were not clinically related, which you had to bear on your own. Do you feel that you've got more tools as well available? Obviously, you just mentioned the 401k, but this concept of actually being able to have true PTO around us, this kind of nothing. But do you feel that you have more tools now you're part of a larger organization? 

Kevin: Oh, my God, the tool, there's tons of tools. The challenge is not the tools. The challenge is I'm so stubborn to ask for help and then trying to figure out, like, okay, and I remember you have to remind yourself, you do help and you can go ask this other person or this other group but then you have the caveat. You send this email, but then you have to wait. But I think it's 1 of those things where you have to remind yourself, hey, you do have help and you can ask for help, HR. You can ask for IT. You can ask for payroll and things like that. So having that, it was more of an adjustment being able to ask for help and finding the help where the help is. And that kind of comes where Dan and stuff like they're helping me out with that. 

Richard: I can imagine that because you had nobody there to help you. So the concept that you can basically get any question you want answered is probably completely alien. 

Kevin: It is totally alien. And it's kind of interesting, but knowing that kind of brought this frustration in me and then I kind of have to have a conversation with yourself, like, hey, you could ask for help, stop being frustrated and ask for help. And I remember Ben having that conversation with me. He's like, dude, ask for help, man. That's why I'm here. And he had to tell me that many times and I'm like, okay. And I started asking for help which is so weird.

Richard: Yeah. Any other surprises since close, what have you noticed or what's kind of stood out since you partnered with Alliance?

Kevin: The biggest thing is Alliance wants the clinics to succeed and they want the clinics to do better and the people in them to succeed as well. I think that honestly right now, I think the biggest thing in all fairness is after the transition, letting us get back to work and getting kind of this silent period of, Hey, let's just do what we do best. This is why we partnered and got back to normal and got back to working and seeing, doing what we do best, which is helping people. That's special. And of course there's always some bumps in the road with EMR stuff, but that's just normal, normal stuff. We've grown already in the last couple of months of hiring, rehiring people and people getting promoted to managers and seeing them grow. So we've made some really big strides since September 1st. 

Richard: Now, you know, there were so many pieces along the journey. What do you feel are the most important questions for the buyer to ask before and after at any point on the journey you've had, what will you believe are the key questions, what you needed to know or questions perhaps you at the time didn't ask or in hindsight, you wish you had asked perhaps.

Kevin: I think the biggest question to ask for anyone is what are your values? What is your mission? Does your values and mission align with Alliance? I think that is really important because it'll make things a lot easier and you're going to be fighting against this other culture you're trying to integrate into. So I think making sure that those align and making sure it's right for you. Not so much, the alliance, but also the time, like you said, is this the right time in your life to do this and making sure you're having an honest conversation with yourself to make sure it's right for you. And that person, I think that's really important. And make sure you left everything on the table and this was the right decision for you and your employees and the company. 

Richard: Great. Lastly, any other words of wisdom for somebody else that's either considering this type of relationship with a larger partner or selling their practice in any way, kind of hitching wagon onto a larger entity. What perhaps would you say to these people that were in your position right in the beginning stages, perhaps? 

Kevin: I think my words of advice is I think that we as a people have been beaten down by people being so dishonest is just come to the table and have a conversation, be honest, have a transparent conversation with you with Jill member, whoever you think is the most appropriate for that person to start talking. And I feel like there's so many people out there who just don't want to communicate and tell us their problems because we're either scared. We have too much pride. Be honest, talk about your challenges and see if it's the right fit for your family and your family employees. I think those are really important things. 

Richard: Yeah. I often say that. Alliance might not be the right fit for a lot of people and that's okay. You know, no harm, no foul you know, I think by having that honest conversation, the beginning, both entities can find out right quickly if this is, if this will, will transpire into a marriage or whether, you know, you've got to go and find somebody else. And it's not as if it's a good or bad fit. It's just different, different people can offer different things, can't they? Absolutely. Whilst our cultures, I believe align really well. You have a different culture than other clinics and those cultures might have fitted better with a different partner as well. So I think it's also understanding that it's nothing personal. If it doesn't fit, it doesn't fit, does it? 

Kevin: Yeah. And you can't force it. And that's life too. That's definitely in life. I think we know, like I said, we know people and we know if it's going to be a right fit or not, you can feel it. It's palpable. And I think we have to use our instincts and use our gut instincts that, Hey, this is, this is the right fit. 

Richard: Well, thank you so much, Kevin, for taking the time with me today. I really appreciate it. And thank you. Anyone that's, that's considering going through this process, we'll find this information really helpful. So appreciate it. And hopefully we have many years of working together and more chats like this in the future. 

This podcast was brought to you by Alliance Physical Therapy Partners. Want more expertise and information? Visit our website at AlliancePTP.com and follow us on social media.

You can find links below in the description. As always, thank you for listening.